them. how they much conduct themselves in the days ahead. it is one ever those times to act, push people to act out there. and to ask and yes, to judge those who do not. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. more politics ahead with al sharpton. the president says political pain is coming, but how much pain can democrats stand in tonight, as both sides go behind closed doors, progress ifs worry about protecting social security. medicare and medicaid. and the republican party showing just how out of touch they are. telling the poor to do more. plus, why bill clinton thinks obama should be more like bill clinton. and, casey anthony is a free woman this wednesday. was this a big fail for our

justice system? or proof that it worked. welcome to the show. i'm al sharpton. to nights's lead. just how much is president obama willing to compromise in the debt fight? the president obama met today with leaders of both parties at the white house. and he said, everyone must sacrifice to make a deal. >> nothing is agreed to until everything's agreed to. and the parties are still far apart on a wide range ever issues. everybody acknowledged that there is going to be pain involved politically on all sides. but our biggest obligation is to make sure that we're doing the right thing by the american people. >> but democrats are nervous that the white house may agree to as much as $4 trillion in cuts over ten years. under that plan, democrats would agree to cuts in social security, medicare, and

medicaid. in return, republicans would sign off on up to a trillion dollars in new revenue. which they don't seem willing to do. >> everything is on the table except raising taxes on the american people. >> we, as republicans, are not going to support tax increases. >> joining me now is independent senator from vermont, bernie sanders, member of the congressive caucus. well, senator, you heard them. they said they're not going to give anything as the party of the republicans now that can't become the party that can't take yes for an answer? >> well, al, it's funny. they're willing to do anything except ask their wealthy friends and large corporations, all doing phenomenally well. we have seen 80% of all new income in recent years go to the top 1%, call for profits are soaring. many corporations pay nothing in

taxes. the wealthiest people in the country have the lowest effective tax rate in 50 years. and the republicans who are ready to cut social security, medicare, medicaid, education, environmental protection, nutrition, anything that is impact a disappearing middle class and increase poverty, that's where we're at. it's pretty crazy to me. >> i think you're right. this anything seems very selective. we will do anything but touch the folks that really have the most. when you talk about medicaid, there is a new study that came out that really talked about how medicaid impacts people. i want your comment on it because i think a lot of us never put a real face, real understanding, human side of this. and it is said that people that use medicaid, people that are poor and need the use of medicaid, that 35% of them are more likely to see doctors or clinics were 40% less likely to

say their health is getting worse. i mean, these are real results. so we're not talking about just throwing away money here. we're talking about actually helping people. >> al, let us be very clear. there is a study that came out of harvard a couple years ago that said 45,000 americans die each year because they don't get to a doctor when they should. if you make the kinds of massive cuts in medicaid that the republicans want to do, and throw millions of kids off of medicaid, you're talking about a lot more people dying and suffering. that's a human face. that's reality. >> now, senator, the washington post said that there was some saying that president is willing to put a change in medicaid or social security on the table. others are saying, that he's not talking about anything differently than he did with the state of the union address. do you think that th there was

just a trial to see whether the republicans was going to say, we're willing to negotiate? or do you think we will really see something put on the table that progress ifs are going to say, that's too far? >> al, i'll tell you, there is a huge effort on the part of very wealthy and powerful people on wall street and elsewhere to make cuts in social security. raise the retirement age and over a longer period of time, privatize it. what is very disturbing to me, everybody has got to understand. social security has not contributed one penny to the deficit of the national debt. it is funded by the payroll tax. >> senator, please let's emphasize that. social security really has no impact on the deficit at all. >> no. >> so this is really being brought in by people that want to use the deficit argument to really change social security which they really want to do all along. >> absolutely.

absolutely. it is not a deficit issue, it is an ideological issue from people who for years, have wanted to destroy or weaken social security. they don't believe government should be involved in providing retirement benefits to the elderly. they think wall street should do that and they want to weaken social security. second of all, at a time when people have so little faith in government, let's not forget, that when barack obama ran for president in 2008, do you know what he said, al? he said, unlike john mccain, i am not going to cut benefits. i'm on your side. to renege on that promise to people that voted for him, that is something that i'm very uncomfortable about. >> let's get right to the point. if medicaid, medicare or social security is on the table, you will not vote for any changes? >> well, it's not only that. yes, the answer is yes. but what we are looking at is the president -- it appears, now

we don't know what end product is. it appears that president is making huge concessions to the republicans, not only social securi security, medicare, medicaid. community health centers. you're talking about nutrition. you name programs that are of great importance to working families, the likelihood is they will be cut in a very draconian way. at this point we don't know that wealthy and large corporations are going to contribute anything to deficit reduction. >> as you said, we don't know what it is but we have our concerns. senator bernie sanders, independent from vermont. thank you for your time and thank you for being with me tonight. >> republican congressman jack kingston from georgia, congressman, thank you so much for joining the show. >> al, it's great to be with you. keep up the good work. by don't always agree, but i like your energy and your spunk. >> well, i like your spunk too. you had a lot of spunk saying that no matter what, you do not

want to see a bridging back the tax code or bringing back taxes as they were before the bush tax cuts. but at same time, you want to see spending cut. is that still your position, congress plan? >> it is, al, because part of it can't be just the pain of cuts as much as the opportunity of growth. and those tax cuts give us an opportunity for the private sector to invest in capital growth which will create jobs and think think that has to be part of the solution here. >> but how longer we going to wait? we're at 9.1% unemployment rate. we've seen the bush tax cuts for years. when are we going to see the jobs come from this? i mean, i'm a preacher. by and by, when the morning come, when does the morning come when the jobs are going to come sfwh. >> i think the morning is coming and i get that from president obama. he is a guy who keeps saying we are about to see the corner turn. but here is, you know, initially when the bush tax cuts went in,

there was more revenue that came as a result of it because the economy boomed. same thing happened under reagan. same thing happened under john kennedy. wee in washington, democrats and republicans alike spent too much money and are spending outpaced revenues. what we really is in my opinion is a spending problem. spending is 24% of the gdp and revenues are 18%. so you know if we talk about increase in the revenues, we still can't get it up to 24%. >> if we increase the revenues, congressman, by closing down some of the loop holes and going back to the prebush tax cuts, we would generate over ten years, $3.8 trillion. that's a lot of money. but let me ask you a question. let's take one of the loop holes that your party has been against closing. have you a loophole where you have hedge fund guys that are

using estate tax loop holes to cover hedge funds profits. give you an example, john paulson it was revealed by the new york times, last year, he made $4.9 billion. that's one man. equal to hundreds of thousands of americans what they would make annually. does that make sense to you? >> well it doesn't make complete nonsense either. i'm not saying it makes a hundred percent sense, but i'm not sure it makes nonsense. the reason is, is i would like to think that a lot of the activities of mr. paulson and others on wall street, are helping us create jobs in washington. >> i would like to think that is true too. but i would also like to think i could fly. congressman, you're not tell meg that's not nonsense for a man to make the equivalent of 184,000 people annually. aren't you the same congressman, kingston that said, and i appreciate your spunk, you are the one that said, that we plu

stop and put uncle sam on the valiant. but you want to give the hedge fund guys a chocolate sundae with bananas, whip cream and cherries on top. >> al, i think this is where you and i can get together. there a lot of quirks in the tax code. what would be appropriate is to clear is out some of that underbrush. we need tax simplification. i'm a fair tax guy. and i believe if we don't have the fair tax, we should have a flat tax. get rid of some of these loop holes. i think that's consistent with republican philosophy of no tax -- >> so you are willing to vote against some of the loop holes? >> well i think what we want is tax clarity and fax fairness -- >> no, no, no. loophole, loophole, loophole. as we go into this negotiation, you say that loop holes should be on the table. >> i think loop holes should be on the table. >> great. would you say we should put fair

tax on the table in terms of going back to restoring the tax cuts if we are going to see the president talk about he is willing to put some on the table, do you think your party should say we should have a trillion in revenue instead of going back to the old tax. >> i think if you increase tax by a trillion dollars you will kill what little recovery we have and we need that capital investment for job creation. i think what you should do is if we can get tax clarity, tax simplification on the table, one thing you and i agree on is we don't like crony capitalism. we don't like like to hear people that don't pay their taxes. >> we do agree on that but we don't like an unequal or uneven advantage and if they keep the disadvantage it will triblg down to us eventually. we got the down, we never did get the trickle. thank you congressman. thank you for coming and talking

with when. >> thanks. ahead, nancy pelosi's message to white house. . social security and medicare are offer the table. top white house advisers here, live to respond. plus, bill clinton, sounds the aalarm on republican efforts to take away voting rights. is a story worth potentially impact in 2012. and casey anthony will be freed next week. is this justice? stay with us. my doctor's again ordered me to take aspirin. and i do. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ mike ] listen to the doctor. take it seriously.

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president obama said political pain will be coming for both sides. he's getting an earful from the base today. the white house responds, next. will bring floor care

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joining me now is democratic start gist, senior advisor to the keri and gore campaigns. how you doing, bob? >> great. good to you see, al. >> good to see you. there are a lot of concerns from progressives reading about social security, medicaid, medicare maybe on the table. others are saying, wait a minute, don't jump the gun. it coon strategy. or it may be no more than what the president has always said in his stated union address about reforming social security. what do you think is going on

here? >> i think the president's looking for a grand bargain. for something that puts this issue behind us for some time to come so we can move on. i wouldn't necessarily say that anything done to medicare will involve cuts in benefits. it can involve all sorts of efficiencies. some of that was done in the healthcare act last year. more could be done without cutting benefits. on social security, what i think what may happen, and this may be key to getting revenue increases is we may move from one cost of living index to another cost of living index which would mean that social he is chiropractority recipients over time would get a raise 3% less than what they otherwise might have gotten and if they live to 95 it could be 9%. at the same time that principle could be applied to the way we index the tax brackets so that more people were paying higher taxes sooner. >> so you are saying in effect that you can reform in these areas without directly impacting

the benefits and the people affected. how do you sell that to the base, though? >> well, i think it's going to be a very tough sale to the base. i think the president understands that it is a catastrophe for the united states if we don't extend the debt limit. and, by the way, no one knows who will pay the political price for this. i think in either side stands there and just said, my way or the highway, we then have a government collapse or collapse of the full faith in credit of the united states. we could lose millions of jobs. huge amount of pain to people. we could have another catastrophe on the area of lehman brothers collapse in 2008 and all of the effects of the global economy. i think he is trying to prevent that. i think how he may get to the deal, and i have just written a column on this, is that no one on either side can predict whole pay the price if somehow or another we don't get there. >> he is a very, very smart man and committed man, no question about it.

could it also be he is doing all he can and if the president puts all he can on the table and the republicans say no, he then say i washington went above and beyond what i could do even to the fury of some in my own base and they still won't make a deal? >> al, i think that's exactly right. i think what president is doing is trying it make a deal but setting up a circumstance in which if all else fails, the whole country will turn to the president. he will have the bully pulpit in a way he seldom does in this fragmented media culture and his narrative may carry through not only the day or the week, but the whole next year. if i were the republicanis, i would sit there and remember what happened to newt gingrich in the mid 90s when they shut down the government. i think they are worried about that. i don't think they know where this comes out. maybe romney would like an economic catastrophe to run

against the president on. i'm not sure house republicans or even senate republicans want to take that racing. >> how catastrophic would it with be if there is a default august 2nd? what are we really looking at? >> well, with you know, it's uncharted territory, it has never happened. but you look at greece, which is a rather small country. >> right. >> it is a decidedly small country. every time it seems to wobble or people think it might default in some way, there are huge knock-on effects in stock market around the world. you take an economy the size of the united states, if it defaults i think the loss of confidence could be fundamental. remember what happened with the lehman brothers. the bush administration said, let them go. it won't matter that hch. it mattered profoundly. we let the united states full faith in credit go. i this that i could have huge impacts resulting in the loss of hundreds of billions of dollars in financial value and millions of jobs. let's not forget when we talk

about standing up for the middle class and working people, we want to protect their jobs. >> all right, bob shrum, thanks for joining me this evening. thanks so much. >> thanks, al. great to he sue. >> we look to be joined by the director of the president's national economic council at the white house. thank you so much for your time. bill clinton makes an explosive claim about republicans trying to disenfranchise democratic votes and he is a hundred percent right. and a question of justice. casey anthony released from jail next week. is that right? stay with us. a network [ male announcer] this...is the network --

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do not consider social security a piggy bank for giving tax cuts to the peal jiest people in our country. house democrats are not supporting any cuts in benefits for social security or medicare. >> how high nort leader nancy pelosi talking earlier to about the social security is now m play in these debt talks. let's get some reaction from the white house. join meg now is gene sperling, director of the president national council. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having us. >> the president met with speaker boehner. he is ske scheduled to meet one on one with ms. pelosi.

he is trying to deal with a very serious problem. how did it go today and how serious is the dilemma the president is in? >> well, the dilemat president is facing is very serious. he inherited a deficit. he understands to give congress the confidence to vote for increasing the debt limit and insure our country doesn't default for the first time, we have the challenge to bring it down, give companies confidence, jobs? our country and do so in way that is consistent with our values. that means to do it in way that strengthens, not against the recovery, in way that makes sure we are invest flg the future. help every american work their way up and in a way that's consistent with our basic social compact in american dream.

that means promoting dignity at work and dignity in retirement. >> now, the president said there will be pain on both sides of this political argument. and a lot of people are hoping that is not just pain on one side. and clearly, i think that is a lot of a concern that you're hearing. how was it in the room today, do you think that those that were in the room that would reconvene on sunday with the president, do they understand that there will have to be shared pain, not just pain on one side here? >> well, i was fortunate to be in that room today. i can tell that you it was very serious and very constructive. and we are obviously not reading out the details but let me just say, what you're talking about reverend is exactly right. when you are doing large scale deficit reduction to help our country recover, from the type of final crisis that this president inherited. it is not just that you need shared sacrifice to make the numbers work. you need shared sacrifice to have the fundamental sense of fairness in this country for people to could be kon tribute.

sacrifice a little for something that would be for the long-term good for everyone. and no one should suggest that all of that contribution or disproportionate amount should be on seniors or working families and suggest that those who have the most political power or those who are the most well off somehow don't have to contribute. uns there is that type of shared sacrifice. >> in that line with that mr. sperling, beyond democrat republican progressive conservative, the american people have said, that they are concerned about keeping social security and medicare benefits. 60% have said that in polls with 32% say, reducing the deficit. we hear deficit, deficit, deficit from the republicans but the american people seem to clearly be more concerned, according to all of the polls i've seen, about social security medicare. >> well, what you have do is you have to have a deficit reduction

plan that is done thoughtfully and carefully. when this president talks about changes in medicare or even in social security, it is very important to understand, anything he would ever do would be to strengthen those programs. he believes medicare and social security are just basic compacts. sacred compacts that we have in our country to make sure that all of us wheb we are in retirement, can have a retirement that is dignified and healthy like people who who have worked hard their whole life deserve. soar when we look at for example, social security, the president doesn't look at that as short or medium term deficit issue. if we are doing anything on social security if that happens, it is for one reason and one reason only. because he thinks it is one of the truly aesh r treasured programs we have in our country. it has been that way for generations and any changes he would make would not be to dismantle or hurt the program but to strengthen it and make

sure it is that rock solid benefit and help generations to come. >> all of this about the president would change or cut social security or medicare. you're saying the president's commitment to these programs is fifrm and any discussion would be around strengthening those programs and strengthening what they do for seniors and those that need medicare in this country? >> absolutely. now listen, this president, we're straight. he is candid with people. we have big challenges. big challenges about the debt. there's times that you have to make changes. and not every change will be completely pleasant for everyone. but if you're thoughtful, if you have the right values, you can do it in way that represents shared sacrifice. maybe you have to cut back a little here or there bb with you for the purpose and cause of strengthening the basic integrity of medicare as we know it, for strengthening the basic integrity and longevity and

solve ency for social security as we know it, that's the fundamental goal of anything this president would ever do on those programs. >> gene sperling, director of the national economic council. thank you so much for your time. >> thank you for having me. coming up, bill clinton says what we've been thinking. republicans are working to disenfranchise black voters. powerful stuff. and. and casey anthony will be free in six day peps is this justice? we are talking about what's right and wrong, ahead. at bayer, we've been relieving pain for over 100 years. and today, we're re-inventing aspirin for pain relief. with new extra-strength bayer advanced aspirin. it has microparticles so it enters the bloodstream faster and rushes relief right to the site of your tough pain. ♪ in fact, it's clinically proven to relieve pain twice as fast.

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welcome back to the show. now to discuss some of today's biggest political stories. we bring on the power panel. washington post political reporter perry bacon junior. syndicated columnist bob franken

and former congressman rick lazo joins us. are republicans out of touch after fighting against tax hikes for the rich? gop senator hatch tells us who really needs to be sacrificing more. >> the other sooiz side just spends and spends and spends and they want to tax and tax and tax so they can spend more. i hear how they are caring for the poor and so forth. the poor need jobs. and they also need to share some of the responsibility. >> rick, isn't that class warfare? i mean, come on. >> listen, here's what's going on in my mind. you have taxes already increasing on the well off. have you $500 billion of taxes that are scheduled to go into effect to pay for the national healthcare bill. have you 2001 and 2003 bush tax cuts that are due to phase out. the republicans don't have the

votes to stop it right now. so the taxes are going up for people that are well to do. they are going up by hundreds of billions of dollars. i think what orrin hatch is saying, when you have a soft economy, almost 20 million americans out of work or looking for a job or underemployed, maybe you don't want to take more money out of the private economy. maybe you want them to create more jobs and invest in america. >> perry, you can respond or mr. franken. but clearly, we're not talking about taxing them more. we are talking about them no longer getting the tax cuts that was taken from the -- why do they keep acting like they are entitled to tax cuts that was put there for them to generate jobs in the economy that were not generated? perry? >> i'm surprised. i think senator hatch's statement will not be given by lots 6 republicans on the campaign trail. it is not a popular thing to say that the poor are not paying

enough taxes, which is his point. the tax rates in america are some of the lowest rates they've been in generation peps so not -- whatever you think of the virtue of his position, that is probably not the best particular argument. >> mr. franken? >> well you can call me bob if you want, al? >> all right, bob. >> the argument that rick makes would be probably more potent if it were not for the fact that all of the wealth is held by a very small segment of our society. very small segment. and all kinds of studies show that rather than using it to create jobs they are hording it and building up their treasuries while at the same time, unemployment sits at 14 million in the united states. the truth is, is that probably there should be a tax increase on wealth to more evenly distribute income that is needed now. >> look at the loop holes. i talked earlier with the congress plan and showed house -- congressman wing ston,

i showed how there is one man making millions on a loophole by paying a state tax on hedge fund income. what are we talking about here? people are getting away with billions of income which payes a state tax which gets a way out of paying their fair share of taxes and hatcher is telling the poor 20 do more. you can't be serious, rick. >> bob is right with income in equality i think republicans should speak to the issues more forcefully. what i think he is wrong about is that taxes rts solution to that problem. they're not. education, building skills, access to credit. getting people to are in underserved areas into small business. those are the answers tho those problems. >> how do you get education and those things without money? that's like saying, breathing is the answer. but don't give you any breath. >> but then you should be for

restraining entitlement programs because eating the discretionary programs alive, the fastest growing areas of the budget and largest areas are the healthcare programs, medicare and medicaid. they are growing at twice the rate of the economy. until you fix that it will squeeze out on parks, education, training, all the rest. >> let me tell you, bob, rick and i are from new york. he says the answer is education, healthcare and jobs. but in toward get it we have to cut education, healthcare and jobs. i want you to understand what he said, bob. >> i think the flaw in his argument he is is presenting this as an either or argument that there has to be cuts in waste in some of the entitlement programs and programs for the poor. or taxes on the rich. i think that the argument could be made that you need both. that there has to be much more efficiency in the way that it operates and conducts its programs.

but throws that have the wealth need to pay more of their share. >> you cover this everyday, why don't you jump in here? >> with 14 million people unemployed as one of these guys just said, i think the challenge is how you address that. to the extent that tax issue is less on the table than ever in a lot of ways, that is what americans are worried about. how does job creations start. this probably has more to do with companies and businesses into what they are doing than what the federal government is doing in terms of tax policy. >> let me do this, rick, then can you respond. when he talks about perry, about the american people and tax on the table, recent poll by nbc wall street journal, says, 81% of americans want to see tax raised on millionaires. 74% in oil and gas subsidies. 76% protect medicare. i mean, are the republicans tone

deaf? the american people are saying -- >> yeah and people are saying they want reduction deficit over job creation. the answer is, we've got to do both. >> where is that? >> this is a poll that just came out this week. let me tell you, when democrats took $400 billion out of medicare, and didn't invest it in medicare to fix the problem but transferred it out to national healthcare, nobody squawked on the left that those programs are undermined. the fact is you will slow the growth of the programs and you have to reform them and change them. when we talk about changing social security, people are no longer talking about private accounts. they are talking about a fairly progressive way to fix social security that would protect people -- >> rick, i think where we are talking about is where everyone understands and agrees is that there has to be shared pain. but the sharing is not really sharing when you say leave the rich alone. leave the loop holes. it is like a chicken and pig

talking about a ham and egg sandwich you want me to give a leg, you drop an egg and that is shared sacrifice. thanks for a great panel. ahead, in one state after another, republicans are doing whatever they can to disenfranchise black voters. we need to stop it. that's next. trs [ male announcer ] at nissan, we test the altima's durability on a track that simulates the world's toughest roads. ♪ [ tires screeching ] ♪ if it can survive this drive... ♪ it can survive yours. the nissan altima. innovation that lasts. innovation for all. ♪ the doctor leaned over and said to me, "you just beat the widow-maker."

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up next, the republican plan to disenfranchise voters. it's alarming. and we have got to fight it. your finances can't manage themselves. but that doesn't mean they won't try. bring all your finances together with the help of the one person who can. a certified financial planner professional. cfp. let's make a plan.

an issue i've been talking about and for month says disturbing and it undermines the very principals of democracy under this country and brings us back to very frightful days. now president clinton is shining a light on this issue. listen. >> there has never been, in my lifetime, sense we got rid of the poll tax and all the other jim crowe burdens on voting, the limit the franchise that we see today. >> 29 states now have voter id laws. about half of them require photo

ids. and more voter photo id laws are in works in nine other states. in every single case, it's republican-led efforts. the laws seem design to hit minority populations hardest. besides mandating photo ids, some scale back early voting. ending same-day registration. making it harder for third party groups to register voters. and create districts for ex fellons. president clinton says it's already had a big impact on places like florida. >> why should we disenfranchise people forever once they pay their price? because most of them in florida were african-americans and hispanics and tend to vote for democrats, that's roo y. >> joining me now is democratic strategist jamaal simmons.

he served as advisor to the dnc during the 2008 campaign. jamal, you heard president clinton. you have heard people like me talk about this for a couple of months now. i mean, tell people in your opinion, how serious this threat is and why. >> reverend sharpton, you were there in 2000 during the recount. when ways spokesman for al gore in west palm beach. they disenfranchise sewed many african-american voters across the state as well as other voting irregularities that took place. then in 2007, charlie crist in florida gave the voting rights back. they said you go to jail as pannishment, not for punishment. then after that your punishment ceased. once you paid your price to society, you get to come back it society. if we are about rehabilitating people and having them have

productive lives, voting is part of that. clearing going after african-americans, latinos, young people by not allowing them to have the right to vote, where they go to school. they have to vote where they are from even though they are not living where they are from. this is historic -- >> you not only have the problem as the president, former clinton talked about, those that paid their debt to society in florida. when you are talking about photo id, a lot of people don't understand, that in a lot of the areas we polled, you have large percentages of young people in communities that don't drive. they have no reason to have a passport, they don't do international travel. so you don't have government photo id which disenfranchise a lot of people in those communities. seniors who no longer drive. this is a real threat and it brings down the voting ol role tlaes we saw that were so high in 2008 election.

>> that is absolutely right. those seniors who don't vote, that's incredibly important thing. and so what you are doing is you are making it more difficult for people to vote when voting aught to be a universal franchise that every citizen, regardless of ability, regardless of income, regardless of disability, ought to have the ability to participate in and republicans are trying to hold that back. >> why are they trying to limit same day voter registration and early voting? has that also added to a lot of new voters that a lot of voters and communities they don't normally get a lot of votes from? >> it adds to a lot of new voters and what the republicans will say is that this is about preventing voter fraud. well, you know, voter fraud, i think one person said, voter fraud is as popular or is as likely to happen to you as getting hit by lightning. people don't fraudulently vote. it just doesn't happen. they are trying to prevent something that doesn't occur. >> let me suggest something that

maybe show some thinking. karl rove wrote in the wall street journal, this is karl rove now, saying for example if african-american voters share of the turnout drops just one point, one point in north carolina, mr. obama's 2008 winning margin there is wiped out. two and a half times over. i mean, there is what karl rove wrote in the wall street journal two or three weeks ago. that if we just drop the black turn out by 1% of what happened in 2008, it flips it two and a half times over. and it changes the outcome of that state. and it changes the electoral map. that's real serious. you don't need a whole lot of fall-off there. >> and they are telegraphing the punch. i mean, karl rove is telling us right now, what the objective is and what they are thinking about. then you see the governors across the country admitting it.

list objective was it make obama a one term president. now you see the small tinkerings. what you and i know from 2000, all you have to do is crunch the numbers on the edges and there is a major impact on the next election. >> he didn't think he was telegraphing it in the punch. it was in the wall street journal. he didn't know i was looking. jamal sillons, thank you. we'll be right back.

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>> the case of the nooemg case has now been resolved. she will be released from jail next week. a lot of people are saying, how can this happen? joining me now is attorney and legal analyst, lisa bloom. she is talk for women who stay smart in a dumbed down world. lisa, a lot of people are saying, this is outrageous. did the system fail or did it

work? >> reverend al, as you know, there are many short cummings in our criminal justice system pu requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case is not one of them. this jury composed of 12 unbiassed people from the community weighed the evidence based on what they heard in the courtroom. based on the judge's instructions to them, they didn't base their decision on the media or what the mob wanted. frankly, i salute them for that. >> in your opinion, you feel that they showed courage, they being the jurors, and you agree that you didn't feel the case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt? >> well, i said on the air before the verdict that i thought the prosecution had proved its case. however, i always show great deference and respect for jurors. i didn't hear all of the testimony. i didn't sit in the courtroom even for one minute. i didn't deliberate with the jury. because tlaf, i defer to this

jury. there were certainly short cummings in the evidence. i don't think it is appropriate in most cases for us to second-guess jurors unless there is a very, very good reason to do so. because we were not under the courtroom. we didn't heart evidence. we didn't assess the demeanors of witnesses just a few feet away live as they did. >> should the prosecutors have gone for lesser charges to give them somewhere else they could have gone rather than all the way for murder one or manslaughter? >> well, probably. in retrospect that would have been a good idea. but there was a manslaughter charge, that was rejected. there was a child abuse charge, that was rejected. before the verdict, reverend al, i didn't hear anyone criticize the prosecution. most on-air commentators thought they put on a terrific case. only after the verdict are they taking a lot of heat now. you just don't win all of your cases when you go into a courtroom. i thought they put on a good case.

i'm not going to criticize the prosecutors. i thought they put on the evidence that they had. >> at the same time, people have the right in this country to disagree with jurors and have verdicts. i certainly have disagreed with my share of juries and prosecutors and agree, so i think at the same time, you have to respect the jury. people have to respect those that disagree. and i think that emotions here lisa, that you and i both share, is that a 2 1/2-year-old child is dead and it seems like no one is paying for it. i don't think the wrong person should pay. but the reality is, this young lady's life was worth something. someone should pay for it. lisa bloom, thank you for your time. thanks for watching, i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now.